Formation advantages?

[Lionsteele]

I’m trying to work out why Rowett persists with the 5 at the back & what its advantages are?

Dmac is not a wing back but is a quality right back. Much better suited to a 4.

Cooper & Hutch are not great on the ball, but when you’re playing them in a three with Wallace, who distribution is awful, you’re forcing them to play out with even less in front of them. Again much better suited to a 4. Having another player in Wallace there seems to confuse everyone and no one really knows the best way to progress up the pitch.

Flemming tends to drift out wide a lot. 4-2-3-1 with him in the number 10 role as we have already seen, you get the best out of him. Us essentially playing 7/8 players behind the ball & then lumping it to him or Nisbet is just an impossible task.

For me, to maximize the potential of the players at home specifically. I can only imagine the following team;

Sarkic
Dmac Hutch Cooper Bryan
De Norre Mitchell
Watmore Flemming Emakhu/Esse
Nisbet

I don’t like 5 at the back at all for us but I suffer it should it be different at home.

BTW - just point of note, I think it’s kind of embarrassing on his own behalf that everyone knows Rowett won’t or doesn’t know how to change it before 62 or 72 minutes. When a game is 0-0 he would rather not lose than go for the win, at home, I don’t really understand that at all. There’s doesn’t seem to be a plan B.

The best managers even early in games where they see the flow isn’t right, will make a change if needed. This will never happen under Rowett.

 

[Peckham Lion]

The best managers even early in games where they see the flow isn’t right, will make a change if needed. This will never happen under Rowett.

I think it’s kind of embarrassing on his own behalf that everyone knows Rowett won’t or doesn’t know how to change it before 62 or 72 minutes.

I 've just put my cape on and gone into superstatwankerman mode and do you know what? Nearly every championship manager is wrong and your right. Not really Over 95% of substitutions made in the championship yesterday and last week came after the 60th and 70th minute. Quite uncany and some coincidence don't you think!

My son studied sports science. It's fascinating but geeky stuff. A team of eleven pro footballers will have different dietary plans depending on what the sport science team and there figures recommend there body needs more or less of. IE, protein, zinc, carbs etc etc.

Same process is used when a manager is selecting his team. Each player will be rated as to how much playing time his body is currently capable of. The chance of injury to different parts of his body he is currently susceptible to.

You see a managers team in the dugout during a match. They're glued to ipads that has every possible stat they need which defines a players game time, risk of injury after x an mount of minutes/ yards run and so on.

So it's easy, again with the benefit of hindsight to tell us all what the manager should have or shoudn't have done whilst not having a single fucking clue about the amount of factors/ reasons/ data involved in his decision making and reasons why he's come to or had to make that decision and not gone with Dave's. The failed and bitter ex sunday footballers advice. Sat at home in front of his spit covered laptop in a sheepskin two sizes to small for him.

 

[PurleyLion]

Where’s Frank and Peggy Spencer when you need them

 

[Lionsteele]

I 've just put my cape on and gone into superstatwankerman mode and do you know what? Nearly every championship manager is wrong and you’re right. Not really Over 95% of substitutions made in the championship yesterday and last week came after the 60th and 70th minute. Quite uncany and some coincidence don't you think!
Blimey, aren’t you clever!

This isn’t based on one game isit, this is the same thing weekly, go back on each season if you have that much time on your hands. Look for yourself with your cape on. I’m not even criticizing him over that period I’m just talking about the subs & since you brought it up go look for yourself. Of course when you look at 1 game. Look at his games specifically, reactionary.

Again, hindsight is after the event. You know people can have opinions on a game before he’s actually made any changes right?

Tbf, it sounds like there is a lot more chance of being a spit covered laptop closer to you than it is me. I hope yours is water resistant.

The irony of saying all that while actually losing your head is commendable. Relax, it’s only a forum, don’t need your sheepskin on

 

[Irish Millwall]

I 've just put my cape on and gone into superstatwankerman mode and do you know what? Nearly every championship manager is wrong and your right. Not really Over 95% of substitutions made in the championship yesterday and last week came after the 60th and 70th minute. Quite uncany and some coincidence don't you think!

My son studied sports science. It's fascinating but geeky stuff. A team of eleven pro footballers will have different dietary plans depending on what the sport science team and there figures recommend there body needs more or less of. IE, protein, zinc, carbs etc etc.

Same process is used when a manager is selecting his team. Each player will be rated as to how much playing time his body is currently capable of. The chance of injury to different parts of his body he is currently susceptible to.

You see a managers team in the dugout during a match. They're glued to ipads that has every possible stat they need which defines a players game time, risk of injury after x an mount of minutes/ yards run and so on.

So it's easy, again with the benefit of hindsight to tell us all what the manager should have or shoudn't have done whilst not having a single fucking clue about the amount of factors/ reasons/ data involved in his decision making and reasons why he's come to or had to make that decision and not gone with Dave's. The failed and bitter ex sunday footballers advice. Sat at home in front of his spit covered laptop in a sheepskin two sizes to small for him.

I have no issue with waiting until the 60th or even the 70th minute to bring on your subs. 3 of Rowett's subs came on in the 80th minute and one well into injury time. In fairness, I'm sure Rowett knows a hundred times more about football than I do so who am I to criticise. But you bring on subs to change a game and 80 minutes is too late to expect them to do that.

 

[Phlion54]

There are things you can change that are not rocket science , take corners ...when the OPPO have one we have all 11 back in the box ,we hopefully clear the ball to who ? ,their players and it comes straight back into a crowded box, why not keep a couple of our player up near the half way line which will need at least 3 of theirs marking leaving more room and less of theirs in our box plus we have an outlet if we clear the ball , we have Got some pace in our team but we do not use it need a winger who actually plays on the wing and create chances for nesbit & co cause our midfield don t seem able to pass the ball in a forward motion , stats ,charts etc have taken the fun out of football and I think managers rely to much on them ,go with your gut feeling even if its early on in the game and make changes not when a iPad tells it's the best time

 

[Peckham Lion]

But you bring on subs to change a game and 80 minutes is too late to expect them to do that.

I agree that it's asking a lot. He sent Esse on six minutes earlier at Boro and he came up trumps. Who knows what his reasoning was yesterday to wait so late.

 

[Peckham Lion]

There are things you can change that are not rocket science , take corners ...when the OPPO have one we have all 11 back in the box ,we hopefully clear the ball to who ? ,their players and it comes straight back into a crowded box, why not keep a couple of our player up near the half way line which will need at least 3 of theirs marking leaving more room and less of theirs in our box plus we have an outlet if we clear the ball , we have Got some pace in our team but we do not use it need a winger who actually plays on the wing and create chances for nesbit & co cause our midfield don t seem able to pass the ball in a forward motion , state ,charts etc have taken the fun out of football and I think managers rely to much on them ,go with your gut feeling even if its early on in the game and make changes not when a iPad tells it's the best time

A lot of decisions/ changes are now stats based. Bringing science into the game does seem like it's over complicating things and something that could make you reliant on when good old wisdom has been used previously.

 

[Lionsteele]

There are things you can change that are not rocket science , take corners ...when the OPPO have one we have all 11 back in the box ,we hopefully clear the ball to who ? ,their players and it comes straight back into a crowded box, why not keep a couple of our player up near the half way line which will need at least 3 of theirs marking leaving more room and less of theirs in our box plus we have an outlet if we clear the ball , we have Got some pace in our team but we do not use it need a winger who actually plays on the wing and create chances for nesbit & co cause our midfield don t seem able to pass the ball in a forward motion , state ,charts etc have taken the fun out of football and I think managers rely to much on them ,go with your gut feeling even if its early on in the game and make changes not when a iPad tells it's the best time

100% - stats will only get you so far - didn’t need to be a stat geek yesterday to see it wasn’t working

Don’t dare suggest this though, as Rowett should already know

 

[obeney]

Purley is spot on. Get Frank and Peggy in.

 

[Lions21]

Tapking of stats - Rowett told us last season that they had looked at the stats and we were better in both attack and defence when we play a back 4.
It’s effectively the same players so why change it to 3/5

 

[Life with the Lions]

I agree that it's asking a lot. He sent Esse on six minutes earlier at Boro and he came up trumps. Who knows what his reasoning was yesterday to wait so late.

I wonder if in some games where it’s not going right, when the game isn’t flowing and chances aren’t being made or taken, that Rowett reverts to being like a rabbit in the headlights: paralysed and seemingly unable to decide what to do, and in which direction to go for the best!

Sometimes, as Phlion said, as a manager you have to go with your gut feeling and make a decision dependent on the game and not the stats on an iPad!

Over 95% of substitutions made in the championship yesterday and last week came after the 60th and 70th minute. Quite uncany and some coincidence don't you think!

But we don’t know why and in what circumstances those subs were made! They could have been to shore up a defence when a team is under the cosh (or to keep hold of a slender 1 nil lead), or to change the game in that teams favour by bringing on more firepower up front with a different set of tactics and formation!

I think yesterday (and certainly by the 60th minute), a lot of supporters could see we could have been playing to the end of the year and not scored! It was just one of those games when the opposition manager had done his homework on us, and was keeping us contained! It was then up to Rowett to change things in our favour and the obvious choice was to bring on Esse and Emakhu. Two players who have pace and trickery and might have taken the game to City! That didn’t happen! Instead he brought on Saville, a midfielder to come on into an already contained midfield which weren’t producing anything because City had us where they wanted us!

My son studied sports science. It's fascinating but geeky stuff. A team of eleven pro footballers will have different dietary plans depending on what the sport science team and there figures recommend there body needs more or less of. IE, protein, zinc, carbs etc etc.

Same process is used when a manager is selecting his team. Each player will be rated as to how much playing time his body is currently capable of. The chance of injury to different parts of his body he is currently susceptible to.

You see a managers team in the dugout during a match. They're glued to ipads that has every possible stat they need which defines a players game time, risk of injury after x an mount of minutes/ yards run and so on.

Personally, I think there is too much of this statwankery on managers iPads these days, especially when it’s used during games! They spend more time glued to those screens than they do looking at the game itself! Use it in the gym for players fitness and to assess a players return from injury, but not during a football match! Back in the day, managers of the calibre of Clough, Shankly, Revie etc. only had the basic of stats when they were managing, and it didn’t seem to affect how they set up for a game or how they dealt with the opposition!

So it's easy, again with the benefit of hindsight to tell us all what the manager should have or shoudn't have done whilst not having a single fucking clue about the amount of factors/ reasons/ data involved in his decision making and reasons why he's come to or had to make that decision and not gone with Dave's. The failed and bitter ex sunday footballers advice. Sat at home in front of his spit covered laptop in a sheepskin two sizes to small for him.

Think you’re being a bit disingenuous to a lot of supporters of every club who do know a thing or two about football tactics and formation! Just because (usually) an ex player becomes a manager, doesn’t mean that he’s going to make the step up from being a fantastic player to becoming a fantastic manager! History is littered in football regarding great ex players who failed at being football managers at league level: Bobby Charlton, Mark Hughes, Frank Lampard, Steven Gerrard etc. Hell, we’ve had our fair share of ex players in the game becoming managers at Millwall, so we should know more than other clubs that it’s not always a recipe for success!

There are worse football managers out there than Gary Rowett, but there are also better ones out there as well! Some will say he’s been successful with Millwall (and others won’t), but it all depends on how you define what the words ‘success,’ and ‘failure‘ mean to you, the individual football supporter, and how and where you think the club should be doing and going, both on and off the pitch!

 

[Romney Lion]

I 've just put my cape on and gone into superstatwankerman mode and do you know what? Nearly every championship manager is wrong and your right. Not really Over 95% of substitutions made in the championship yesterday and last week came after the 60th and 70th minute. Quite uncany and some coincidence don't you think!

My son studied sports science. It's fascinating but geeky stuff. A team of eleven pro footballers will have different dietary plans depending on what the sport science team and there figures recommend there body needs more or less of. IE, protein, zinc, carbs etc etc.

Same process is used when a manager is selecting his team. Each player will be rated as to how much playing time his body is currently capable of. The chance of injury to different parts of his body he is currently susceptible to.

You see a managers team in the dugout during a match. They're glued to ipads that has every possible stat they need which defines a players game time, risk of injury after x an mount of minutes/ yards run and so on.

So it's easy, again with the benefit of hindsight to tell us all what the manager should have or shoudn't have done whilst not having a single fucking clue about the amount of factors/ reasons/ data involved in his decision making and reasons why he's come to or had to make that decision and not gone with Dave's. The failed and bitter ex sunday footballers advice. Sat at home in front of his spit covered laptop in a sheepskin two sizes to small for him.

As someone who has his UEFA B licence, has coached and managed at pyramid level and knows that we the fan doesn't see what goes on in training or during the week. The issue is with GR's tactics we know he is defensive minded, we know he prefers a counter-attacking style of attack and we know he is happy with the oppos having possession, we won't go down with GR but we are stuck at the moment and his style of play won't allow us to progress.

Fans will say better the devil you know but the football is at times tedious and in the main frustrating. The club have yo-yo'd between the championship and league one for most of my lifetime but now we look like we could reach the so-called promise land (Couldn't care less if I'm honest with the exception of the money it brings) But I do expect any Millwall side to go out and give it a bloody go and we're not.

Sack GR, maybe not because we know he can change it, but only he can answer that.

 

[Wippa]

I have no issue with waiting until the 60th or even the 70th minute to bring on your subs. 3 of Rowett's subs came on in the 80th minute and one well into injury time. In fairness, I'm sure Rowett knows a hundred times more about football than I do so who am I to criticise. But you bring on subs to change a game and 80 minutes is too late to expect them to do that.

This. Would’ve been more than happy if he’d made the changes on the 60th or even 70th minute

 

[Life with the Lions]

This. Would’ve been more than happy if he’d made the changes on the 60th or even 70th minute

Exactly. Although the 60th minute would have been better! If he’d done that and it hadn’t worked (for whatever reason), at least supporters could not have slated him for not being proactive!

 

[Lionsteele]

I wonder if in some games where it’s not going right, when the game isn’t flowing and chances aren’t being made or taken, that Rowett reverts to being like a rabbit in the headlights: paralysed and seemingly unable to decide what to do, and in which direction to go for the best!

Sometimes, as Phlion said, as a manager you have to go with your gut feeling and make a decision dependent on the game and not the stats on an iPad!

But we don’t know why and in what circumstances those subs were made! They could have been to shore up a defence when a team is under the cosh (or to keep hold of a slender 1 nil lead), or to change the game in that teams favour by bringing on more firepower up front with a different set of tactics and formation!

I think yesterday (and certainly by the 60th minute), a lot of supporters could see we could have been playing to the end of the year and not scored! It was just one of those games when the opposition manager had done his homework on us, and was keeping us contained! It was then up to Rowett to change things in our favour and the obvious choice was to bring on Esse and Emakhu. Two players who have pace and trickery and might have taken the game to City! That didn’t happen! Instead he brought on Saville, a midfielder to come on into an already contained midfield which weren’t producing anything because City had us where they wanted us!

Personally, I think there is too much of this statwankery on managers iPads these days, especially when it’s used during games! They spend more time glued to those screens than they do looking at the game itself! Use it in the gym for players fitness and to assess a players return from injury, but not during a football match! Back in the day, managers of the calibre of Clough, Shankly, Revie etc. only had the basic of stats when they were managing, and it didn’t seem to affect how they set up for a game or how they dealt with the opposition!

Think you’re being a bit disingenuous to a lot of supporters of every club who do know a thing or two about football tactics and formation! Just because (usually) an ex player becomes a manager, doesn’t mean that he’s going to make the step up from being a fantastic player to becoming a fantastic manager! History is littered in football regarding great ex players who failed at being football managers at league level: Bobby Charlton, Mark Hughes, Frank Lampard, Steven Gerrard etc. Hell, we’ve had our fair share of ex players in the game becoming managers at Millwall, so we should know more than other clubs that it’s not always a recipe for success!

There are worse football managers out there than Gary Rowett, but there are also better ones out there as well! Some will say he’s been successful with Millwall (and others won’t), but it all depends on how you define what the words ‘success,’ and ‘failure‘ mean to you, the individual football supporter, and how and where you think the club should be doing and going, both on and off the pitch!

100% mate. Seems I’m not the only one.

Peckham just seems to disagree because ‘the manager knows best’ sentiment is the right why. Despite obviously getting things wrong on occasions.

Yes we were unlucky to concede the goal but everyone could see it was being lost before that. Affects the crowd too.

 

[Lionsteele]

As someone who has his UEFA B licence, has coached and managed at pyramid level and knows that we the fan doesn't see what goes on in training or during the week. The issue is with GR's tactics we know he is defensive minded, we know he prefers a counter-attacking style of attack and we know he is happy with the oppos having possession, we won't go down with GR but we are stuck at the moment and his style of play won't allow us to progress.

Fans will say better the devil you know but the football is at times tedious and in the main frustrating. The club have yo-yo'd between the championship and league one for most of my lifetime but now we look like we could reach the so-called promise land (Couldn't care less if I'm honest with the exception of the money it brings) But I do expect any Millwall side to go out and give it a bloody go and we're not.

Sack GR, maybe not because we know he can change it, but only he can answer that.

Agreed mate,

You can see what have a good squad but can imagine a lot think it’s not utilized to max playing the way he currently wants to, becomes frustrating because it does indeed feel like we’re not giving it ago at home.

 

[The_Doc]

This season will play out like every other full season under Rowett. We’ll start poorly, there will be calls for his head. He will change formation, we start winning, get near or in the PO positions and bottle it and end up mid table.

 

[STWall]

A lot of decisions/ changes are now stats based. Bringing science into the game does seem like it's over complicating things and something that could make you reliant on when good old wisdom has been used previously.

I have a simple take on that game. Both teams cancelled each out and they nicked it at the end. We have done the same to others. That said I would expect both managers to recognise this and respond accordingly with substitutions i.e Plan B. If what you’re doing isn’t working try something else! However that requires an appetite for risk!

 

[cold blow]

We were totally outplayed in the first half and yet the same players and the same formation was used from the start of the second half, we lacked any pace and it was clear that the two youngsters would have caused them problems and they did when they came on (when we eventually got the ball)

The definition of madness is doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome, yesterday was madness.

Managers now have our style of play sussed, its up to Rowett as Manager to change it, we now have good quality players so no excuses.